Gregory Szorc's blog

Laws Only Apply to the Law-Abiding

A new security report just went through via e-mail...

Incident Description: Three students were robbed while walking along the sidewalk east of Fribley Commons, along Murray Hill Road. The suspect parked his vehicle on Murray Hill Road and approached two of the victims from behind. He produced a handgun and demanded their belongings. The students complied by handing their belongings to the suspect. Another student approached the scene, and the suspect robbed him of his belongings also. The suspect then fled to his vehicle and traveled east on Murray Hill. University Circle Police spotted the suspect's vehicle a short time later and pursued it into East Cleveland. The suspect was apprehended by University Circle Police and East Cleveland Police.

to which a few of my friends responded immediately:

"That story cannot be true, the university is sending out false emails. We all know you aren't allowed to have guns on campus, so that guy couldn't have had one. That guy should be set free immediately, I'm sure it was a misunderstanding."

and

"I've got a great idea.. why don't we put up signs everywhere on campus to remind criminals that guns aren't allow on campus. We know all criminals follow laws!"

So true. No matter what laws you may have, there will be those who do not follow them. We like to think that if we make a rule or law, that others will follow it and the problem will be solved.

The state of Ohio says you cannot carry a firearm on campus. Therefore, all law-abiding citizens won't and they leave themselves open to be victimized by non law-abiding citizens. Without security checks for banned items, this law is useless. It doesn't even make you feel safer. Think about it, the law says you can't carry guns. Does that guarantee every person you encounter won't have a gun? Of course not! The only thing this law accomplishes is give criminals the upper hand.

I'm not sure what bothers me more; laws like this that accomplish nothing or those who buy into their false promises of security...

You can ping this entry by using http://blog.case.edu/gps10/mt-tb.cgi/2998 .

It makes it much easier to prosecute when a law is clearly posted and then violated. Although, in the case of a gun...

You are a bit off Greg. The state of Ohio actually recently legalized the carrying of concealed weapons. I can carry a 9mm legaly anywhere except where a private business or personal property owners forbid it. Case forbids students or anyone from carrying weapons on campus. If you do have a gun you have to leave it with security while on campus and you can pick it up when ever you leave.

I was aware of the Ohio concealed carry law. However, I thought a law was on the books that said you couldn't carry on college campuses. Since this is not the case, I guess the battle over our 2nd Amendment rights is here at our doorstep. I wonder how many more incidents involving defenseless individuals it will take before this policy is revisited...

Sec. 2923.126. (B) A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:

(5) Any premises owned or leased by any public or private college, university, or other institution of higher education, unless the handgun is in a locked motor vehicle or the licensee is in the immediate process of placing the handgun in a locked motor vehicle;

John, you might want to double check your information there, I wouldn't want to see you get into trouble over anything. Refer to the prohibited places section of the Ohio Revised Code § 2923.126(B)(5):

Any premises owned or leased by any public or private college, university, or other institution of higher education, unless the handgun is in a locked motor vehicle or the licensee is in the immediate process of placing the handgun in a locked motor vehicle;

That prohibits concealed carry on college owned land by law. Case my have their own policies in addition, but that provision is pretty clear.

Of course carrying concealed is not for everyone, but creating a zone of unarmed prey for criminals is obviously not the answer. In fact, I remember as an undergrad in the dorms, I was verbally reprimanded for a swiss army knife, because it was a "weapon." I do not condone having a firearm on campus becasue I will not suggest anyone break the law. I will, however, go as far as to say the campus rules against pepper spray and other nonlethal means of protection are absolutely absurd, and should be taken as a suggestion.

Since when is all of Murray Hill Road on campus?

I'm more curious to know whether the tower in the parking lot was staffed by campus security, and how they responded to the incident. It must have been reported quite quickly if UCPD was able to catch up with the car before it left Little Italy. It seems like they did a good job to me.

Although I think this was implied above, the law doesn't allow just anyone to carry concealed or otherwise. One must still get a special permit that requires 12 hours of training or law enforcement experience.
Details at http://www.ag.state.oh.us/web_applications/concealcarry/About.asp

That aside, I can't say that I have ever felt like "unarmed prey" while wandering about this campus. I did feel queasy wandering about the circle two years ago when Biswanath Halder was loose with a gun in PBL. I also felt a little jarred some years earlier when Martin shooed us into the Spider after one individual shot another on the back steps of Arabica. (non-fatal)

These episodes are very rare.
Yet I can't say that having a weapon would have helped in these situations. If the fellow who was shot at Arabica had a gun perhaps he would have shot back. Perhaps his accuracy would have been off, perhaps the event would have escalated, perhaps his bullet would have landed in me!

As it actually happened one shot was fired and Security, UCI police, and EMS arrived almost instantly. The shooter was apprehended and the shootee was treated.

I think shootouts with criminals are challenging enough for trained law enforcement officers. I certainly wouldn't want to be anywhere near one happening between a criminal and a good citizen with a mere 12 hours of training.

Also when it comes to being on campus, they've not exactly left us exposed and alone. Security is available to escort any of across campus at anytime.

In response to Heidi's comment:

I agree with you. I want to emphasize, however, that just because you have the right to carry a weapon doesn't necessarily give you the right to discharge it. The class you must take to obtain a conceal carry permit teaches you such things.

The thought I was hoping to drive home was that criminals are capable of preying on individuals around the university because they know with certain liklihood that we are defenseless and that if we were allowed to conceal carry, it would take away that certainty. We are very fortunate that many of the criminal incidents that occur around campus don't escalate into situations involving casualties. Unfortunately, it is only a matter of time before one does. There is no preventing this. All we can do is deter the inevitable. Allowing concealed carry would, in my opinion, be an effective deterrent.

Or would it just increase the risk of escalation? As it is, a gun-carrying criminal knows that they just need to wave the gun at me to persuade me to give up my wallet, so they don't need to shoot me (or even load the gun). Admittedly, this is a shitty state of affairs, but I fear the alternative, which is that the same armed mugger knows that I might shoot them, so they'd better shoot first.

I don't know that this is what would happen, but I'm just suspicious of arguments that putting more guns on the street will result in less crime, particularly when Britain (where I grew up, and where guns are illegal) has a so much lower gun homicide rate than the US.

Glad you brought up Britian. It made me think of Switzerland.

Switzerland has more firepower per person than any other country in the world -- yet it is one of the safest places on Earth.

In 1997, there were 87 intentional homicides and 102 attempted homicides in the entire country -- with firearms involved in 91 of the 189 total cases.
Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000 population and a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000.
Almost half of those crimes were committed by non-resident foreigners -- whom locals call "criminal tourists."
By comparison, Britain -- which has strict gun control laws -- had a homicide rate in 1994 of 1.4 per 100,000 and a robbery rate of 116 per 100,000.
Although Switzerland has local shooting contests for boys and girls ages 12 to 16, there have been no school massacres in the country.

All males between the ages of 20 and 42 are required to keep rifles and pistols at home for purposes of national defense. Military historians do not doubt that this was a big reason Hitler chose to avoid Switzerland in favor of conquering countries which had strict gun control laws -- as well as registration lists which facilitated confiscation of firearms.

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd061099b.html

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