Posted by: Sara
Posted on: December 5, 2006 11:35 PM

Hi James. I guess you side with the school district, and "95% of America," but I think that the parent, from the small information given, was 100% reasonable, and definitely not "absurd."

I was Jewish growing up (raised in an orthodox environment) and every year, Christmas hit my small-town Pennsylvania school by storm just after Thanksgiving break ended. It was just baffling for me. I didn't understand why math was canceled and I had to sit in a strange man's lap and ask for gifts. The teacher would be watching my every move. What is the right thing to say? Barbies? World peace? I didn't understand why I had to spend two entire schooldays in second grade making a poinsettia art project, just so that the hallways would "look nice" for when the parents come for openhouse. I knew it had something to do with Christmas and I better just do it, even though I couldn't even pronounce it, let alone fathom why I couldn't just make a daffodil instead. Snowflakes I could handle--they are relevant to everyone.

My Hanukkah gifts came straight from my parents, not some story character. Yet at school I was being told to be good or else Santa wouldn't give me anything. Talk about incentive!

Ok, ok. What is my point? Here it is. While Santa is a secular figure and not endorsed by the church officially, it is available specifically only to Christians. Most non-Christian people would rightfully prefer that their children not be force-fed and brainwashed with the "secular" traditions of other religions. I laugh at the prominent use of the word secular. If they're going to bandy about that term in their defense, then I want to see people going to "secular churches" and "religious churches." There is no way that "95%" of Americans are religious Christians. The indulgent nature of American society precludes much actual religion or spirituality from happening.

In fact, I would like to see Santa gone for a different reason. School, a place for education, should not be used as a place to sprout materialistic thoughts in children so that their parents feel pressure to fuel the economy. That is just morally wrong and despicable. Some parents can't afford to give their children anything for Christmas except the ability to keep the heat from being turned off. Or perhaps teachers could turn it into an educational opportunity by teaching the children about the real reason we as Americans keep Santa Claus in our 21st-c. lives. It's called RETAIL THERAPY.

James, this is a secular tradition that's only for Christians. Does that not even trigger a bit of suspicion from you?

Posted by: Author (James)
Posted on: December 6, 2006 07:40 PM

Thank you for your comments.

The assumption would be that 95% of Americans are in the giving and holiday spirit to accept the idealism of Santa Claus.

Now, my high school was predominantly Jewish, but we celebrated both Christmas and Hanuakkah, and during my last year, we added Kwanza to the list. There was no issue with seeing the christmas tree and menorah in the main high school office. But I guess during that time, people were not in the mood to question everything.

In some districts, there may not be a sufficient town hall or center that can host such an event, and do remember that the event being sponsored up in upstate NY was not mandatory for all.

Retail therapy is also known as shopping in the UK. I really doubt if Christmas is only a Christian thing. Why is there a need to put up holiday lights and decorations on the front lawn? Why is there a christmas tree in the living room in almost every house on the block? Do we do it because that's what the Christians do? Or are we just trying to celebrate the holidays, and Dec 25 is a special time that happens once a year?

Maybe they'll push a petition to get rid of the tree in Rockefeller Center because it's a Christian thing and offensive to all the non-Christmas folk.

The whole thing is getting too complex.

Posted by: Sara
Posted on: December 9, 2006 10:33 PM

Hi James, sorry for waiting so long to reply. Busy times, no?



Here are my thoughts on the points you raised:



"In some districts, there may not be a sufficient town hall or center that can host such an event, and do remember that the event being sponsored up in upstate NY was not mandatory for all."



I wouldn't have so much a problem if it was just a community event that needed to be held in a school cafeteria, but it seems like a school event. My beef with religious public school events is that it to varying degrees can ostracize students of other faiths. Yes, it is optional for attendance and it may seem silly to argue against a simple breakfast. I will give you the victory in this point, but I still think that it walks a fine line, enforcing a mentality that most people in the school are Christians, so they have the validation (numbers) to have an event, whereas the Muslim representation definitely wouldn't. Therefore, the rest of my discussion here will concern Christian customs that happen during actual schooltime. It is good that your school made all faiths feel comfortable. In mine, however, I felt very conflicted. In several cases, other students even teamed up and told me I was a bad person for not believing in Santa Claus. When you mix a large majority and something that they associate with God (many children do!), strange things can happen... Of course, the right thing to do (to fight this mentality) would be for a non-Christian parent to organize the breakfast with only a winter wonderland theme or something like that. I think some people still might be unhappy that there is no Santa though, even if they understand that it conflicts with the parent's values.



"Retail therapy is also known as shopping in the UK. I really doubt if Christmas is only a Christian thing. Why is there a need to put up holiday lights and decorations on the front lawn? Why is there a christmas tree in the living room in almost every house on the block? Do we do it because that's what the Christians do? Or are we just trying to celebrate the holidays, and Dec 25 is a special time that happens once a year?"



I am unclear about what you mean here. Christmas trees (although they are pagan symbols), red and green decorations, and the such are largely used by people who identify as Christians. Although this is a secular side to their religion, it is still a part of their religion and no one else's. If non-religious people want to use these secular symbols in their holiday season, fine, but if people of other religions have Christmas trees, which are not condoned by their religion, then they are making the choice to include a Christian ritual in their lives. This isn't everyone's decision and some would say that a Jew or Muslim who has a Christmas tree just plain isn't practicing their religion right. My family used blue and white lights on our house for Hanukkah--the difference here is the colors alter the meaning. So, no, Christmas is not only for Christians. But I feel that we must also look at what it is not--and it is definitely not for practicing members of many other faiths.



The point here is that people of non-Christian religions have the right to practice their religions devoutly if they wish and their children shouldn't be pressured, I feel, to ape Christian traditions in order to fit in, in an educational setting which they are required to attend. In a non- public school (non-government) setting, anything goes, but not at school (Rockefeller Center is completely different, it isn't government-run and it isn't mandatory to go there).



Basically I have always felt this way and I think I am being objective. But sometimes I feel like a jerk who harasses people over candycanes. :) Part of me thinks, am I being unfair? But my gut instinct always was, that being flooded with Christian culture on school time (with occasionally a token mention of Hanukkah, which only few people were educated on, anyway) made me feel very uncomfortable at times.



This is a very good discussion for me. Thank you for sharing your views.

Posted by: Cameron
Posted on: December 14, 2006 10:38 AM

The complaining parent who wished to remain anonymous has a name: [name deleted]. If she wishes to attempt to strip us of our culture, she should be known. This is not an issue of religion, but of EQUAL ACCESS. She should have done the right thing and volunteered to host an additional event instead of changing the event - at the last minute - to suit HERSELF. She didn't even attend the breakfast. The ruling by the school district to rename the event, by the way, also translated to other Santa-related events at other schools in the district. She must realize what she started with all of this. The folks of Warwick NY are standing up for what is right. Freedom OF religion - not freedom FROM religion.

Posted by: rob
Posted on: December 19, 2006 12:50 PM

[deleted by request]

Posted by: mary
Posted on: December 19, 2006 05:35 PM

As a resident and teacher in the school district, I feel the need to correct Sara about this topic. Although this event was held on school grounds - it was not during school hours, at not taking away or adding to the education of the children in the school (check our contract b/4 you try to be pius)and above all - it was not a mandatory event. This woman could have rented out this space, as did our PTA and had an event that suited her as well. Instead, she chose to make Warwick the town that Santa forgot. However, through the coverage on Eyewitness News and on Z-100, it is clear that our spirit will not be dampened by a Scrooge.

Posted by: Mary
Posted on: December 19, 2006 05:42 PM

Oh, and by the way Sara, I am sorry that kids teamed up on you when you were younger about not beleiving in Santa. Its too bad it turned you bitter towards other people's traditions. You are an adult now - Get over it - embrace the fact that America was built on the notion that everyone has the right to celebrate whatever they choose to, if you dont like it move.

Posted by: Sara
Posted on: December 19, 2006 09:32 PM

Cameron: "She should have done the right thing and volunteered to host an additional event instead of changing the event - at the last minute - to suit HERSELF."



Sara: "Of course, the right thing to do (to fight this mentality) would be for a non-Christian parent to organize the breakfast with only a winter wonderland theme or something like that."



Obviously, we are in agreement here. I don't see the problem here. Wait, did you read this?



Sara: "I will give you the victory in this point, but I still think that it walks a fine line, enforcing a mentality that most people in the school are Christians, so they have the validation (numbers) to have an event, whereas the Muslim representation definitely wouldn't. Therefore, the rest of my discussion here will concern Christian customs that happen during actual schooltime."



Rob: I honestly don't know what to tell you. Are you saying that this "[name deleted]" is Jewish and processes her hair? How do you know this? Why bother posting if you can't present your ideas intelligibly?



Mary: Please reread what I wrote:


Sara: "I will give you the victory in this point, but I still think that it walks a fine line, enforcing a mentality that most people in the school are Christians, so they have the validation (numbers) to have an event, whereas the Muslim representation definitely wouldn't. Therefore, the rest of my discussion here will concern Christian customs that happen during actual schooltime."



I hope that misconception is now cleared up for you and any future posters. Also, Mary, as a schoolteacher I would expect you to behave in a more upstanding and logical manner on a university-run blogging system. Slinging opinions such as "Get over it" and "if you dont like it move" hurts your position when you speak. For one, you sound horribly uneducated with your lack of basic grammar skills. Also, here is a tip. The great thinkers of the world don't sway anyone, or improve conflicts in the least, with rash, opinionated statements. Try limiting your arguments to plain old facts and a polite demeanor and perhaps you can legitimately be taken seriously.



To James: I'm sorry that your blog is now littered with all these trolling messages. I thought I was just weighing in respectfully on the subject. If you think I was inappropriate, I will cease commenting on your blog.



To all: A couple thoughts. I think the true Christmas spirit is a beautiful thing. I even dedicate much of my free time during the holiday season singing liturgical music in churches--I do it because I enjoy helping people celebrate their spirituality. Before you post to tear me down, ask yourself. Seriously. WWJD? Would he maliciously attack those you disagree with him? Would he post the name and address of a woman on the internet, in an unabashed attempt to endanger her safety? The answer is no, he wouldn't. Everyone, chill out. Spread the love.

Posted by: James
Posted on: December 20, 2006 09:12 AM

I am pretty much tolerant to the content in the comments section. There will always be a wide range of comments from the simple-minded to the complex arguments that will favor the commentor.

Given that Warwick is a small town of about 6,400 people (correct? a yahoo search gave me that figure, and another search gave me more than 30,000), it would be hard for a person to remain anonymous over such an issue like this. If a parent or resident is determined to voice his or her objections, should that person hide in anonymity or be recognised? Is it that hard to accept another person's opposing viewpoint without resorting to some sort of violence?

If the fellow parent was that opinionated, she should have showed up at the Frosty the Snowman breakfast to back up her reasoning. I just find her lack of presence not helpful.

I would like to see events being more inclusive instead of exclusive. Put up the Christmas trees and santa claus, and the menorah and harry hanuakkah. Why should we get the kids involved with politics at such an early young age? It's Dec and winter, and we should promote the holiday spirit. Do you want your kids to be happy while at school? They learn in class and enjoy the festive holiday season too. Seeing bare hallways and classrooms in Dec, Jan, and Feb makes it all grinchy.

I just find it surprising people would think Christmas is promoting some sort of radical Christian agenda. How about we are just promoting a festive holiday spirit of giving and enjoying great food and presents?

Sara: Your comments are always helpful. Happy Hanuakkah!

Rob: Not helpful to the discussion. It doesn't even open up any solution or further debate.

Mary: As a teacher, there is a necessity to listen to all opposing viewpoints. "Getting over with it" is not an ideal solution. We cannot forget history and past experiences. In the past, there were certain rights in America that were not accorded to all citizens based on their color and ethnicity. We cannot easily forget that. There will be at times certain issues that should not have been blown out of proportion. Sara did not have a pleasant experience during her school days, and it should not be held totally against her.

Posted by: Sally
Posted on: December 21, 2006 10:30 AM

If Santa is not secular, then why is it he asks children what they want for Christmas?

Posted by: Tyler
Posted on: December 21, 2006 01:29 PM

I am actually working on a report right now for school about holidays in school. All these different viewpoints were very helpful. Personally, I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, and do not agree with Christmas in school. I am going to be a music major in college, but I was not even allowed to participate in the choir "Holiday Concert" that my music program puts on. I did not participate because even though I am a Christian, we do not follow Christmas (because of it's pagan origins).



Even though there is freedom of religion, are you allowed to bring your religion into school? Especially when it limits other students from participating in normally "acceptable" activites. The government isn't allowed to have a cross between church and state, but in schools it's ok? I'm pretty sure school is government funded by the tax payer's money.

If I'm way off on this point, somebody please correct me. Why are religious holiday even permitted in school in the first place?

Posted by: Sara
Posted on: December 21, 2006 04:22 PM

"Even though there is freedom of religion, are you allowed to bring your religion into school? Especially when it limits other students from participating in normally "acceptable" activites. The government isn't allowed to have a cross between church and state, but in schools it's ok? I'm pretty sure school is government funded by the tax payer's money."


Tyler, this overlapping of church and state is something I believe is fundamentally wrong in our public school systems. In some schools, perhaps, there are a pretty even mix of Jews and Christians, say. Put up a tree and a menorah and you're on your way. But in your case, the nature of your religion made you feel unincluded in the community at school. Perhaps, even if there had been a way to recognize your religion, if you were the only one, you would be looked at as a "token" (you don't watch south park, I gather?) member of your faith and still not have the ability to join in the same kind of fellowship at school that the largest religious group would encounter.


On to a different area, I am a music major with voice as my primary instrument. As I have said I was Jewish growing up. I no longer am; I am agnostic. But again, a great portion of music that I must learn for school is Christian (actually liturgical, not reindeer fluff). In the choirs I've sung with, there have been many Jews singing this sacred Christian music. I have even been under the directorship of Jewish choir directors who program this Christian music for their choirs. Here is how everyone deals: All of these choirs are voluntary and upon joining and understanding what repertoire is to be focused on, each singer knows that the experience is based on the beautiful music, not the dogma. I understand that it is a different ballgame in highschool where everyone should feel free to join choir which is in a way more of a social activity--but you couldn't, and that is unfortunate. I'm just giving you a heads up that at most secular universities, these music matters are approached with much more grace, typically, than in high school. :)


Also: "Why are religious holidays even permitted in school in the first place?"


Tyler, I am stumped on this one. I watch this TV show called The Office, a brilliant comedy. In it, certain characters are always doing things in the office (their workplace) that they really only should be doing in their homes. One character brings in a dead goose near Christmas-time and says he should be allowed to prepare the goose at work since it is a traditional Christmas food. The humor, of course, is that this is suitable for him to do at home, but he automatically assumes that anything he can do at home, he should be able to force on everyone else at work, also. And this is a comedy! But people think they can do this in real life, in the public schools. I am not trying to take the spirit of Christmas away from children! Please, don't make me laugh. They can always celebrate personal holidays and traditions at home. Why is everyone acting like this isn't true? I want there to be a separation of church and state: no religion in publically-funded schools. Of course, that means that people still have their freedom of religion. Everything has its appropriate time and place. Why can't we agree? There is ample opportunity for everyone to have satisfaction. We can all still cook our geese at home, after all.

Posted by: James
Posted on: December 21, 2006 05:44 PM

Should the line between church and state be literally defined? Some things can be easily recognised, but for the rest, it should be done on a case-by-case basis.

Back to the holidays. I am curious about the christmas tree in front of the White House. Is it offensive? Is the tree considered secular or non-denominational or too Christian? Or are we thinking too hard on this? Could we accept that the Christmas tree is just one way to celebrate the holidays? How far should we push this?

In the schools, should holidays be celebrated? If we are preventing folks from celebrating Hanuakkah, Christmas, or Kwanza, then could Thanksgiving, Halloween, or Columbus be forbidden too? Some may feel Thanksgiving is disrespectful to the Native Americans, Halloween is for pagans and witches, and Columbus is also offensive to Native Americans.

If a teacher gave out cards to his/her students, would the teacher be labeled as a person trying to offend other faiths, or is the teacher trying to cheer the students because it is the holidays?

One politically incorrect incident occurred when a bus driver on Long Island, NY was almost fired when a parent complained that a student was bothered by it. Why have we brought ourselves down to this level?

Some may suggest that holidays be totally removed from our public schools. Is that really the best solution that we can come up with? Our schools are supposed to be a place of knowledge and learning. It is supposed to be a positive environment for our kids. Put up some lights and decorations. Enjoy the fun!

Posted by: Kell
Posted on: December 22, 2006 11:14 PM

I also live in the Warwick NY school district. I won't harp on the heavily-discussed points, but will state my position as a Christian and Santa-supporter.

That said, my question goes on a tangent from the main argument. Another of the elementary schools in Warwick (not the "Breakfast" one) created a separate character to replace Santa Claus in its annual celebration, which does actually take place during school hours. -- Again, I'm not going toward the separation of church and state issue. I do get that.

This year, with Santa banned, school leaders created a character called "Jingle Toobey Fair". This character is dressed in festive winter-themed garb, just as Santa Claus is. This character handed out oranges to the kids, which is what Santa Claus always did. This character gave a speech about positive values and fairness, just as Santa Claus promotes good behavior and sharing. This character visited on the last day of Dec, before Winter Recess, just as Santa Claus did.

Is it really any different to have this "Jingle Toobey Fair" character, just because they don't call it "Santa Claus" and nobody mentions Christmas out loud? I found it to be quite the ruse!

One more point to add, this elementary school is in a largely agricultural rural area. One of the PTA's biggest fund raisers of the year, held outside of school hours on a Friday evening in October, is the annual Harvest Festival. It was mirrored after the local tradition of celebrating the end of farming season when the Christian farmers gave thanks to their God for the bounty. Should the Harvest Fair be allowed to continue? Or any "Harvest" celebration in any school for that matter? Based on my knowledge of local history, not a whole lot of Jewish or Muslim farmers growing apples and onions in the northeastern USA. I'm not sure about the corn, wheat or potatoes in the midwest. This article supports that statement http://www.slate.com/id/2084352/

I personally enjoy the rich palette of many cultures, whether or not I fully embrace each custom. I would be disheartened to see society become completely homogenized into celebrating nothing.

But how can we get around simple things that have origins in one religion or another? Pretzels were created by monks and shaped to represent arms folded in prayer. And yet, the Bachman company has a whole line of kosher pretzels.

OK, sorry to have rambled. I'd love to hear thoughts on the non-Santa Santa-based character, though!

If you are so inclined, Merry Christmas!
Or, if you are so inclined, Happy Hanukkah!
Or, if you are so inclined, Happy Kwanzaa!
Or, if you are so inclined, have a pleasant day or evening!
Or, if you are so inclined, feel free to go forth with no sentiment when you are finished with your internet visit!

~Kell

OK, here's where I have one dig ... At the above event, the Middle School (12- to 15-yr olds) choir performs. Yes, they did a Hanukkah song first. However, their choice of an appropriate "Christmas Song" to sing to school kids, the oldest of which are barely eleven years old? "Santa Baby". The District Superintendent who dropped the ax on Santa sat right there in the audience, yet he had no objections to THAT??

Posted by: Roger
Posted on: May 5, 2007 08:32 AM

On the subject of Christian faith, does it not teach that we should speak the truth to one another? Does it not condemn the telling of lies? Yet in general terms "christians" are happy to lie and perpetuate a lie when it comes to something like 'Santa' - as Tyler also commented, xmas is a festival based on pagan rituals and festivals, yet "christians" use what is pagan to praise God who is anti-pagan - is He pleased with that?
Surely there should be a separation between 'Church and State', just as Jesus Christ himself refused to be made a king.