February 23, 2010
The alleged arrogance of atheists-3: The conversion question
(My latest book God vs. Darwin: The War Between Evolution and Creationism in the Classroom has just been released and is now available through the usual outlets. You can order it from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, the publishers Rowman & Littlefield, and also through your local bookstores. For more on the book, see here. You can also listen to the podcast of the interview on WCPN 90.3 about the book.)
For earlier posts in this series, see here.
In the previous post, I said that the statement that Jared found offensive and hurtful is that "The world would be better off without any religion or beliefs in the supernatural." He said that "I think you really don't get how deep rooted religion is into the psyche of those that are religious or have a faith. To wish away their religion is almost to wish away them" and that it implied that I felt that "The world would be better off without Jews, Christians, and Muslims. (etc)" and that "to propose the nullification of that part of me is to propose my nullification", and as such constituted hate speech.
Actually, I really do get "how deep rooted religion is into the psyche of those that are religious or have a faith". After all, I was one of those people once and am still surrounded by them in the form of friends and relatives. It is this very deep-rootedness that I identify as precisely the reason why religions are so persistent despite the lack of evidence in favor of them and the abundance of counter-evidence. What I don't understand is why that fact should earn the believers of religions a pass from criticism.
I also frankly do not understand what is meant by to "wish away" people and propose their "nullification". I assume it does not mean that I want them exterminated! Is the desire to "wish away" certain beliefs the equivalent of wanting to "wish away" the people who hold those beliefs? Surely not. What I think Jared means is that religious beliefs are such an essential part of people that losing them destroys them as individuals.
That assertion is flatly contradicted by the fact that many people have given up their once deeply held religious beliefs (to either join other religions or become skeptics) and been none the worse for it and even come out stronger. Just because a belief is deeply held does not give it some kind of immunity. After all, people deeply hold views that are racist, sexist, xenophobic, or exhibit other forms of bigotry. Some people also label themselves by the signs of the Zodiac and infer innate qualities based on them and even act on that basis by consulting astrologers and horoscopes before making important decisions. No one would seriously argue that the world would not be better off without those beliefs or that those views should be protected just because some people identify with them strongly, or that we are hurting those people when we try to convert them away from these absurd or noxious beliefs. Why is it hate speech to encourage people to use evidence, rationality, and reason in every area of their lives?
The only reason to argue that religious belief should be treated differently from those others is because religious beliefs are obviously good or beneficial and the others obviously bad. Religions have used that trope for years to try and shield themselves from criticisms. But isn't that the very point in dispute? I don't think religious beliefs are good or benign, even though religious individuals can be both. For reasons that I have given before, I think a world where religion has ceased to have people in its thrall and where people no longer identify themselves by divisive religious labels would be a better world than what we have now. But why should such a view constitute hate speech?
The issue of attempted conversion seems to be another element of Jared's discomfort with my post because he says:
I'm not asking you to stop being an Atheist.
I don't believe you are going to Hell.
I don't want to convert you to my way of thinking.
I would just hope that when you publicly "wish us away" that you realize it's not friendly. And if you know it and you don't care - then its just not nice.
The present situation, where some religious people seem to think that politeness demands that they should refrain from claiming superiority for their own religion, seems (within the framework of religion) contradictory. After all, religious people presumably think that their faith is the most important thing in their lives, so why be so reticent about it? Like the many debates we have had during the primary elections, why not have debates as to which religion is the best and which god is the right one to be worshipped? If we can spend so much time and energy in selecting a mere president, surely we should be willing to do at least as much for something as important as the ultimate fate of people's immortal souls?
I for one would enjoy listening to public debates as to why any one religion is better than the others.
Addressing Jared directly for the moment, if you think that your own religion of Judaism is true and that the god of the Jews is the one true god, then what is wrong in saying so and trying to persuade other people of it? I certainly would not be "offended" by such an attempt even though I would disagree with it. Surely you are a Jew (in the religious sense, not as a member of an ethnic group) because you think that it confers some spiritual benefit to you? Why would you not want to share that benefit with others?
Next: More on the conversion question.
POST SCRIPT: Diet fads
That Mitchell and Webb Look takes on an industry that thrives on people's ignorance.